IM Doc pt12

[temporaryreality]

Last of the March 2021 comments. 

See also, this post https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/03/a-covid-tragedy-wholesale-discrediting-of-our-health-science-institutions.html

Comments are open.

Kevin Smith MD

March 31, 2021 at 8:18 am

Re: covid immediately after vaccination
1. I just got my appointment for Covid vaccine, and felt like loosening up on the precautions [and I am a doc!] I reined myself in, and reminded myself that the shots will be just one more layer of protection, and are sure not a license to abandon precautions. Knowing patients as I do, I imagine that some folks may loosen up before they get a shot, get infected, then get sick right around the time of the shot.

2. It is possible that some immunizations [not just for Covid] may transiently depress cell-mediated immunity in some individuals, facilitating the emergence of incipient infections [notably viral infections like Covid] and/or the emergence of latent infections [for example, herpes simplex = cold sore; or herpes zoster = shingles.]

The above may also explain why some folks have a nasty case of the flu very shortly after having a flu shot.

 

1. SKMMarch 31, 2021 at 12:12 pm

   I`m really puzzled by the statement in links :”the most fascinating problem that has no obvious explanation is a surprisingly large number of patients that get sick and are COVID positive within hours/days of their first injection. I have heard all kinds of lame excuses why this may be happening – but none of them really ring true for the numbers that are occurring…”
   There is no immune protection for about 12 days after the first shot – just puzzled a doctor seeming not to know this. Protection then builds slowly over the following weeks etc
   “Lots of people” coming down with Covid very shortly after the first vaccination, if true (ie if statistically true that is compared with the rest of us) might suggest they caught it at the vaccination centre (see occasional photos of overcrowded centres and under-nose mask wearing)….
   just perplexed at the statement…..

    
   1. IM DocMarch 31, 2021 at 2:00 pm

      That was my comment – so I will be happy to explain.

      I have had actually numerous patients sealed up in cars double masked at the vaccine center in the parking lot far away from anyone – with the vaccine attendants in CAPR PPE – get very ill within 24 hours of the vaccine and end up positive for COVID. These are not people “letting their guard down” which is the main excuse for this phenomenon. Furthermore, they are people who have been holed up at home – at no risk for exposure. At least in the time frame that it takes for COVID from exposure to illness. They are certainly not vaccinated fully until 2 whole weeks from the last vaccine.

      But the timing and their exposure make no sense. I can see this happening to a few patients – but this is just happening way way too often.

      This phenomenon of getting ill with COVID within 24 hours of the vaccine has become so common across the country that I am seeing Twitter threads among my colleagues about what is going on. It is happening repeatedly in my practice. Many are noticing this – and many are discussing.

      I had a couple this AM who got their shots on Monday – again in a car with no exposure sticking their arms out the window to a CAPR clad attendant. They have not been out of the house in 6 weeks. Their groceries and mail are left on the doorstep every day. They called yesterday evening – a day after their shots – both very ill – and their rapid tests were positive this AM.

      The leading theory on this that makes any sense at all was alluded to by the other physician above – Kevin Smith MD – some kind of viral reactivation. In other words, patients may have deactivated COVID particles lying around their upper airways or lungs that get activated when the immune system is distracted by the vaccine. The herpes virus family does this type of thing all the time. There is evidence that this could be happening in coronaviruses as well – although not as well worked out. There are other theories that are too abstruse to go into here. NO ONE is suggesting the vaccines are giving them COVID. NO ONE is suggesting that the vaccines should be effective in 8 hours. It is just the fact the timing and access to infection is all wrong – and something else must be going on to explain this scenario. It is much much too common to ignore.

      It is almost like an Agatha Christie locked-door mystery.

      I am a veteran of the AIDS crisis. These kinds of issues in the times when not much was known were common. The insights that came from many of these scenarios back then were critical for learning about the virus and its life cycle. I am certain this will be no different.

      It is imperative that when everyone runs across discussions among physicians on Twitter about these things – restrain yourselves. Do not insert yourselves unless you know what you are talking about. Read and learn and think. This is how we in medicine are going to get to the bottom of this pandemic. People in our time seem to forget the years it took to unravel AIDS; COVID will be no different. And it is still very early.

       
      1. HarryMarch 31, 2021 at 3:27 pm

         Thank you.

         Very useful

          
      2. GFMarch 31, 2021 at 3:29 pm

         IM Doc:

         Which vaccines seem to be the worst offenders?

          
         1. IM DocMarch 31, 2021 at 9:44 pm

            I have experience only with Pfizer and Moderna – and I can see no difference.

             
      3. drumlin woodchucklesMarch 31, 2021 at 6:50 pm

         Would it make sense for people scheduled for vaccination to marinate their bodies in the appropriate anti-virals so that they are full of anti-viral chemical when getting the vaccine? So that the anti-viral will keep suppressed any dormant coronavids which the vaccine distracts the body from keeping suppressed?

          
         1. IM DocMarch 31, 2021 at 9:45 pm

            I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
             

Comments

Re: covid immediately after vaccination
1. I just got my appointment for Covid vaccine, and felt like loosening up on the precautions [and I am a doc!] I reined myself in, and reminded myself that the shots will be just one more layer of protection, and are sure not a license to abandon precautions. Knowing patients as I do, I imagine that some folks may loosen up before they get a shot, get infected, then get sick right around the time of the shot.

2. It is possible that some immunizations [not just for Covid] may transiently depress cell-mediated immunity in some individuals, facilitating the emergence of incipient infections [notably viral infections like Covid] and/or the emergence of latent infections [for example, herpes simplex = cold sore; or herpes zoster = shingles.]

The above may also explain why some folks have a nasty case of the flu very shortly after having a flu shot.

Re: covid immediately after vaccination
1. I just got my appointment for Covid vaccine, and felt like loosening up on the precautions [and I am a doc!] I reined myself in, and reminded myself that the shots will be just one more layer of protection, and are sure not a license to abandon precautions. Knowing patients as I do, I imagine that some folks may loosen up before they get a shot, get infected, then get sick right around the time of the shot.

2. It is possible that some immunizations [not just for Covid] may transiently depress cell-mediated immunity in some individuals, facilitating the emergence of incipient infections [notably viral infections like Covid] and/or the emergence of latent infections [for example, herpes simplex = cold sore; or herpes zoster = shingles.]

The above may also explain why some folks have a nasty case of the flu very shortly after having a flu shot.

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
 

I`m really puzzled by the statement in links :”the most fascinating problem that has no obvious explanation is a surprisingly large number of patients that get sick and are COVID positive within hours/days of their first injection. I have heard all kinds of lame excuses why this may be happening – but none of them really ring true for the numbers that are occurring…”
There is no immune protection for about 12 days after the first shot – just puzzled a doctor seeming not to know this. Protection then builds slowly over the following weeks etc
“Lots of people” coming down with Covid very shortly after the first vaccination, if true (ie if statistically true that is compared with the rest of us) might suggest they caught it at the vaccination centre (see occasional photos of overcrowded centres and under-nose mask wearing)….
just perplexed at the statement…..

I`m really puzzled by the statement in links :”the most fascinating problem that has no obvious explanation is a surprisingly large number of patients that get sick and are COVID positive within hours/days of their first injection. I have heard all kinds of lame excuses why this may be happening – but none of them really ring true for the numbers that are occurring…”
There is no immune protection for about 12 days after the first shot – just puzzled a doctor seeming not to know this. Protection then builds slowly over the following weeks etc
“Lots of people” coming down with Covid very shortly after the first vaccination, if true (ie if statistically true that is compared with the rest of us) might suggest they caught it at the vaccination centre (see occasional photos of overcrowded centres and under-nose mask wearing)….
just perplexed at the statement…..

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
 

That was my comment – so I will be happy to explain.

I have had actually numerous patients sealed up in cars double masked at the vaccine center in the parking lot far away from anyone – with the vaccine attendants in CAPR PPE – get very ill within 24 hours of the vaccine and end up positive for COVID. These are not people “letting their guard down” which is the main excuse for this phenomenon. Furthermore, they are people who have been holed up at home – at no risk for exposure. At least in the time frame that it takes for COVID from exposure to illness. They are certainly not vaccinated fully until 2 whole weeks from the last vaccine.

But the timing and their exposure make no sense. I can see this happening to a few patients – but this is just happening way way too often.

This phenomenon of getting ill with COVID within 24 hours of the vaccine has become so common across the country that I am seeing Twitter threads among my colleagues about what is going on. It is happening repeatedly in my practice. Many are noticing this – and many are discussing.

I had a couple this AM who got their shots on Monday – again in a car with no exposure sticking their arms out the window to a CAPR clad attendant. They have not been out of the house in 6 weeks. Their groceries and mail are left on the doorstep every day. They called yesterday evening – a day after their shots – both very ill – and their rapid tests were positive this AM.

The leading theory on this that makes any sense at all was alluded to by the other physician above – Kevin Smith MD – some kind of viral reactivation. In other words, patients may have deactivated COVID particles lying around their upper airways or lungs that get activated when the immune system is distracted by the vaccine. The herpes virus family does this type of thing all the time. There is evidence that this could be happening in coronaviruses as well – although not as well worked out. There are other theories that are too abstruse to go into here. NO ONE is suggesting the vaccines are giving them COVID. NO ONE is suggesting that the vaccines should be effective in 8 hours. It is just the fact the timing and access to infection is all wrong – and something else must be going on to explain this scenario. It is much much too common to ignore.

It is almost like an Agatha Christie locked-door mystery.

I am a veteran of the AIDS crisis. These kinds of issues in the times when not much was known were common. The insights that came from many of these scenarios back then were critical for learning about the virus and its life cycle. I am certain this will be no different.

It is imperative that when everyone runs across discussions among physicians on Twitter about these things – restrain yourselves. Do not insert yourselves unless you know what you are talking about. Read and learn and think. This is how we in medicine are going to get to the bottom of this pandemic. People in our time seem to forget the years it took to unravel AIDS; COVID will be no different. And it is still very early.

That was my comment – so I will be happy to explain.

I have had actually numerous patients sealed up in cars double masked at the vaccine center in the parking lot far away from anyone – with the vaccine attendants in CAPR PPE – get very ill within 24 hours of the vaccine and end up positive for COVID. These are not people “letting their guard down” which is the main excuse for this phenomenon. Furthermore, they are people who have been holed up at home – at no risk for exposure. At least in the time frame that it takes for COVID from exposure to illness. They are certainly not vaccinated fully until 2 whole weeks from the last vaccine.

But the timing and their exposure make no sense. I can see this happening to a few patients – but this is just happening way way too often.

This phenomenon of getting ill with COVID within 24 hours of the vaccine has become so common across the country that I am seeing Twitter threads among my colleagues about what is going on. It is happening repeatedly in my practice. Many are noticing this – and many are discussing.

I had a couple this AM who got their shots on Monday – again in a car with no exposure sticking their arms out the window to a CAPR clad attendant. They have not been out of the house in 6 weeks. Their groceries and mail are left on the doorstep every day. They called yesterday evening – a day after their shots – both very ill – and their rapid tests were positive this AM.

The leading theory on this that makes any sense at all was alluded to by the other physician above – Kevin Smith MD – some kind of viral reactivation. In other words, patients may have deactivated COVID particles lying around their upper airways or lungs that get activated when the immune system is distracted by the vaccine. The herpes virus family does this type of thing all the time. There is evidence that this could be happening in coronaviruses as well – although not as well worked out. There are other theories that are too abstruse to go into here. NO ONE is suggesting the vaccines are giving them COVID. NO ONE is suggesting that the vaccines should be effective in 8 hours. It is just the fact the timing and access to infection is all wrong – and something else must be going on to explain this scenario. It is much much too common to ignore.

It is almost like an Agatha Christie locked-door mystery.

I am a veteran of the AIDS crisis. These kinds of issues in the times when not much was known were common. The insights that came from many of these scenarios back then were critical for learning about the virus and its life cycle. I am certain this will be no different.

It is imperative that when everyone runs across discussions among physicians on Twitter about these things – restrain yourselves. Do not insert yourselves unless you know what you are talking about. Read and learn and think. This is how we in medicine are going to get to the bottom of this pandemic. People in our time seem to forget the years it took to unravel AIDS; COVID will be no different. And it is still very early.

Thank you.

Very useful

Thank you.

Very useful

Thank you.

Very useful

I have experience only with Pfizer and Moderna – and I can see no difference.

IM Doc:

Which vaccines seem to be the worst offenders?

IM Doc:

Which vaccines seem to be the worst offenders?

I have experience only with Pfizer and Moderna – and I can see no difference.

I have experience only with Pfizer and Moderna – and I can see no difference.

I have experience only with Pfizer and Moderna – and I can see no difference.

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
 

Would it make sense for people scheduled for vaccination to marinate their bodies in the appropriate anti-virals so that they are full of anti-viral chemical when getting the vaccine? So that the anti-viral will keep suppressed any dormant coronavids which the vaccine distracts the body from keeping suppressed?

Would it make sense for people scheduled for vaccination to marinate their bodies in the appropriate anti-virals so that they are full of anti-viral chemical when getting the vaccine? So that the anti-viral will keep suppressed any dormant coronavids which the vaccine distracts the body from keeping suppressed?

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
 

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.
 

I think that would be a bad idea. Dormant or inactived viral particles are going to engender no immune response – so I think that would not be indicated.