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temporaryreality ([personal profile] temporaryreality) wrote2021-08-11 09:13 pm

IM Doc pt4

Please see the updated link in the topmost IM-Doc related post on this blog to find the current discussion location.

Further Discussion of the Red Flags in the Pfizer Vaccine Paper in the New England Journal of Medicine

Earlier this week, we posted An Internal Medicine Doctor and His Peers Read the Pfizer Vaccine Study and See Red Flags [Updated]. Most readers responded very positively to the write-up by IM Doc, which included the reactions of the eight other members of his Journal Club who reviewed the article and its editorial, as they have done regularly with important medical journal articles. We have embedded the Pfizer article from the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) below; the link to the editorial is here.

However, some took issue with IM Doc noting that two nurses in the UK had suffered anaphylaxis, a severe, potentially life threatening allergic reaction, after getting the Pfizer shot. IM Doc criticized the paper and editorial for not including or adding a discussion of any exclusion criteria, particularly since Pfizer’s proxies admitted that severe allergies were an exclusion criterion. From MedicalXpress:

Moncef Slaoui, who is the chief advisor to the US program for COVID vaccine and treatment development, told reporters, “Looking into the data, patients or subjects with severe allergic reaction history have been excluded from the clinical trial.

“I assume—because the FDA will make those decisions—that tomorrow this will be part of the consideration, and as in the UK, the expectation would be that subjects with known severe reactions, (will be asked) to not take the vaccine, until we understand exactly what happened here.”

Slaoui is the co-head of Operation Warp Speed and previously head of GlaxoSmithKline’s vaccine department. Other media outlets and professional medical writers (see here and here for examples) picked up his statement that subjects with severe allergic reactions were excluded.

If you look at the article below, you will see that it is not searchable. That indicates an expectation that it would be read as a print out only. You will find it make no mention of “exclusion criteria”. Neither does the the separate editorial by NEJM editors. The article does does mention “protocols” in the text, twice, but does not have a link to where to find them, does not have a written URL, nor does it provide a name or location to assist in finding them.

Some critics argued that the protocol (which you need to search through to find the selection process for candidates, including the exclusion criteria, for the Phase III trials) could “easily” be found in the Supplemental Materials and further asserted that any regular reader of medical papers would be able to find then. The fact that IM Doc, who has been reading medical papers for 30 years, and his eight colleagues did not locate them is already significant counter-evidence, particularly since the NEJM’s media kit lists the publication’s audience solely as physicians. No doubt scientists read it too, but the eyeballs advertisers really want to reach are doctors, academics or scientists in the employ of competitors.

IM Doc could not find the Supplemental Materials because the PDF that the NEJM generates does not include them. It is in the online version, and opens up to a dropdown menu, with the first item “Protocols” which takes you to a document via an external link. Since readers have every right to assume that online and PDF versions of the same article are identical, there was no reason for him to look further.

It turns out that the data waters appear to have been muddied by the NEJM itself. IM Doc and his colleagues found and read the Pfizer paper late last week. It was then on the first page of the site. He sent me his write-up on Saturday the 12th. I went to look at the article and charts on the NEJM site. It was then on the front page of the site. I experienced rendering issues in Firefox but nevertheless was able to look at the article, along with the separate tab in the header area for “Figures/Media”. I also noticed a “Supplemental Appendix,” which I opened. It was a bit of a hodge podge but didn’t contain anything that related to IM Doc’s observations. I did not see any tab with “Supplemental Materials.”

IM Doc did a big revision of his draft on Sunday, which I edited that evening. IM Doc was a bit freaked out Monday AM when the Pfizer article has moved off the NEJM front page, but he quickly located it on the site. I looked quickly, simply registering that I could find it and see the charts, but I did see that the rendering problems were no longer occurring.

I was not the only person who recalls seeing the “Supplemental Appendix” (notice NOT “Supplemental Materials”) as a stand-alone document with a link to it in the top area of the NEJM site before December 12 (sadly, the Wayback Machine allows publishers to suppress older versions of articles upon request, so there is no image of the article as it initially appeared on the first page of the NEJM site).

Fortunately, reader KLG harrumphed about the Supplemental Appendix in comments. KLG is a professor of microbiology and has been doing basic research for 30 years, so he can’t be dismissed as inexperienced in reading scientific papers. I asked for his recollection of what he found when he went to the Pfizer article:

Here is how I remember finding the paper, after seeing the post from IM Doc yesterday. I apologize if this is TMI, but I want to be as clear as possible:

(1) I clicked on the link while in my office and gained direct access through our medical library, downloaded the pdf, and printed it on a high-resolution color printer, which is my standard, old-fashioned practice. I then read through the paper fairly quickly, and thought it was OK/promising but not necessarily complete.

(2) I saw no obvious (printed) link in the pdf to any supplementary materials, so I went back to the online link to the paper through our library (full access to most medical journals). I saw the link to the 12-page “Supplementary Appendix” with the 4 pages of names and downloaded and printed it. This link was on the right side of the screen/page, near the top. This link was not at the bottom of the single page of the paper as I see NEJM.org from home this evening, along with the other links, including Protocols, Disclosure Forms, etc. I am not accessing the journal remotely through our library tonight and would be seeing it as “outsiders” do. The point for me is this: One link to supplementary material should go directly to all supplementary materials. This has been what I have been accustomed to for years. Sometimes the files are ridiculously large and there may be 10-15 of them, but they are all there and easy to find. If one link cannot be managed, then all links should be in the same place on the webpage, listed one after another as S1, S2, S3, etc.

(3) Still, I may well have missed these other links, because while I am very skeptical of “science” direct from Big Pharma, my forensic antenna were not fully deployed until the usual suspects showed up later in the day as I checked back in to see how things were going.

(4) But more importantly, I do not believe for a second that IM Doc and his like-minded journal club (a common mechanism for all biomedical scientists and many clinicians to keep up with current developments) would have missed these materials, if the links were properly displayed as they should have been on day-one. As I mentioned in my previous email, so-called supplementary material has become a thing, for good or ill, in biomedical publishing, and in my experience the links are prominent in strong journals (and NEJM is definitely that, or certainly was when Marcia Angell was editor). Moreover, IM Doc undoubtedly has a subscription to NEJM, which should have displayed the links prominently both in hard copy and online. Based on his every contribution to NC, IM Doc seems uncommonly attuned to both the practice and science of medicine, going back to the beginnings of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, which made a deep impression on all of us who were there, clinicians and non-clinicians alike. That is when we learned to parse the literature and separate the wheat from the chaff. And there was a lot of chaff in the HIV/AIDS literature from ~1983 until triple-therapy was published in 1994 IIRC and AIDS became a chronic, manageable condition for most of those infected with HIV.

Let us stress again, as you can see from the PDF below, which I downloaded Monday morning: In the PDF, there are no Supplemental Materials nor any reference to them. The Section is completely omitted. This is where the link to the Protocol would be found, were NEJM to have followed its usual practice in other articles.

In other words, NEJM initially either did not present the Supplemental Materials tab at all or through terrible design, directed reader attention away from it by having a prominent Supplemental Appendix link at the top, which experienced readers would assume contained all of any additional documents, save any others mentioned and/or linked to in the article proper and/or the editorial. And even when it cleaned that up, NEJM did not update the article to include a link or printed URL, or a reference.

In addition, even after readers in comments had pointed out where to find the exclusion criteria (in the Supplementary Materials, in Protocols, meaning two clicks and a search, when it should have been easier to find), other had difficulty finding it and also deemed the material to be poorly presented:

SE

Thank you for highlighting the exclusion criteria. When I looked at the NEJM article, I was also unable to find them. I noticed that a reader has since posted them, and you updated the post. I also found the on Pfizer’s website. https://www.pfizer.com/science/find-a-trial/nct04368728-0

California Dreaming

My wife is a graduate of Stanford Medical School and is a subspecialist in Internal Medicine. Not infectious disease. She was at the top of her class. She graduated a bit more than 10 years ago. I was so intrigued by this doctor’s post that I wanted to do a little test, admittedly with just one subject. As you can see I was an early commenter and have skin in the game because I live with a doctor.

I wanted to see if she could identify quickly the exclusion criteria just like this doc has now admitted was confusing but actually there. She could not do so quickly – and it took her about 45 minutes to do so and then she stated to me when looking through them how recklesly they were spelled out. She was surprised. Phase 1 stuff all mixed in with the others. She was also very concerned about the fact that there were so many common conditions that had not been studied or included in a wide population impact drug like a vaccine. Concerned about why these are not being more publicized given the fact that we will be trying to vaccinate presumably everyone. Should this not be publicized more with both docs and patients.

This discussion should put the question of the adequacy (not) of the NEJM presentation of information about the Pfizer vaccine to rest. It was incumbent on the New England Journal of Medicine to provide a concise overview and ready access to details important to practitioners to help them assess a medication intended for the entire population, yet developed and approved on a corner-cutting basis. They fell short.

Lambert, who in a prior life was a document analyst and developed schema for medical journals, was taken aback by other data presentation failings in these pieces. He intends to discuss them in the near future.

[to see what was inserted here, please go to the original post, linked via the orange title]

Eustachedesaintpierre

My Mother is actually being Pfizer vaccinated today, but according to my sister who is her carer the old girl is already slipping away due to her physical state & the Alzheimer’s. Sis isn’t getting much sleep as she has to increasingly give Mum a nudge when she hears her breathing stop. I guess it is only a question of short time now, of which the vacc will likely make no difference or perhaps tip her over the edge. I just hope that it doesn’t cause discomfort & to be honest I hope Sis misses a breathing lapse fairly soon for her own sake & Mum’s as the latter’s quality of life is very poor – easy for me to say of course as I won’t be the one to find her gone.

I would have stopped the vaccination but it’s not my call.

IM Doc

Ma’am or Sir,

FWIW – I don’t know your mom or your family.
But your situation is the exact reason why immunizations should be handled by a PCP who knows her and her story well. To degenerate them into every one line up in the parking lot and get them one by one is not the best idea. We are in a crisis and we may well have to do things not the best. I keep telling myself that.

I have been a provider in this pandemic from Day 1. I have seen nursing home and rehab patients many of whom have dementia enough to make them unable to understand their circumstances. All across the land they have been turned into literal prisoners. It has not been a good scene.

I would suggest to you that you step back and evaluate the risk and benefit to your mom in her current situation as I am with every single patient. She sounds like she has a limited life span – and a limited quality of life. If this vaccine allows her to not spend that time as a prisoner – I think that sounds like a win for everyone involved. If she has a vaccine complication that is life ending (profoundly unlikely) – in my opionion that would have been worth the risk. One thing is for sure – you should not stress once you make the decision.

Good luck and God be with you.

re: “The wealthy scramble for COVID-19 vaccines: ‘If I donate $25,000 … would that help me?'” [Los Angeles Times]. “They’re offering tens of thousands of dollars in cash, making their personal assistants pester doctors every day, and asking whether a five-figure donation to a hospital would help them jump the line. The COVID-19 vaccine is here — and so are the wealthy people who want it first. ‘We get hundreds of calls every single day,’ said Dr. Ehsan Ali, who runs Beverly Hills Concierge Doctor. His clients, who include Ariana Grande and Justin Bieber, pay between $2,000 and $10,000 a year for personalized care. ‘This is the first time where I have not been able to get something for my patients.'” • That last sentence is even more frightening than the headline, since it implies that the entire health care system is rotten from top to bottom; everything is for sale.
 

Milton

His clients, who include Ariana Grande and Justin Bieber, pay between $2,000 and $10,000 a year for personalized care.
Holy crap! So concierge service is less expensive than ACA Bronze options? I think a zero, or two, is missing from those dollar amounts.

IM Doc

No, that is about right.

That covers only the services of the PCP. It is not lab, x-rays, surgery or anything else.

Anything else – hospital, rehab center, specialists, ER – is untouched by the concierge service – it is all on the patient.

It is the most absurd model ever. The specialists HATE it because the PCP concierge docs call them and demand special care because of their own payment model. The PCPs are under extreme demand to produce rapid service. This can be very irritating to the specialists who are not in on the deal.

The patient is in effect paying the PCP fee to have expedited consults and referral visits. At the expense of everyone else.

When the PCP converts to this model, their patient cohort goes from 1800 or so down to 300. The other 1500 get sent to the winds and picked up by other PCPs who are already overburdened.

I have known many colleagues who have regretted changing to this model very quickly. Rich people are often very boring on top of malignant personalities. Your 300 patients have your cell phone – and begin to call and ask if it is OK to put avocados in their soup. Yes – that is a true story.

It is all so tragic. And all so America.
 

IM Doc

A bit of clarification medically.

Anaphylaxis is a different breed than a normal allergic reaction. It may not be fully in force for hours after the allergic exposure. Sometimes, it is instant but most of the time it is not. Furthermore, it often takes days or hours to mitigate. Epinephrine usually makes it better, but until the allergic issue itself is resolved, once the epi wears off the symptoms will re-emerge.

It is important to note, epi-pens are never meant to be a one time “shot” to cure anaphylaxis. They are meant to stabilize the patient until they can get to a hospital. The patient often ends up admitted for a day or two until the allergic reaction is gone.

Having people wait around the Kroger is just not going to solve this issue. The arrival of the symptoms may be gradual and it may be hours. It is very concerning to me in a rural area because so many patients are so far away from care and this could happen many hours after the injection.

To be a bit morbid, this is a horrendous way to die. The patient is turning all different colors, they are fully awake and in absolute terror, and the only sounds they can make are that of a barking seal. In medicine, this very often initiates in the hospital setting and is instantly taken care of. We do not get to see this in full force. As an intern in a large public hospital, I saw this after the patient had been struggling for many hours. Not pretty. I have seen parents of kids who had this happen to them who are traumatized for years. I am not saying this lightly or for comedic effect. This is serious business. If this starts happening on a grand scale, I do not think the risk/benefit ratio for society at large is going to mean a hill of beans for Joe Q Public.
 

IM Doc

To put this in perspective.

These vaccines are basically fat globules with various proteins on the surface. Their exact nature is proprietary so exact details are conjecture.

Fat globules covered in protein in general are an ideal compound to initiate allergy reactions from mild to severe like anaphylaxis.

Phase 1 trials of all other vaccines in the recent past using this technological approach – Zika and Flu – were not allowed to expand because of this very issue.

It is curious this is occurring in geographic clusters. It makes me really wonder if we are dealing with a shipping or stability problem.

If someone actually dies from this at this point, it will change the game. At this point now we are entering territory where in years past, the FDA would have begun to have safety meetings to see a way forward. In those days, temporary suspension was always on the table.

In our current situation, I will be honest. I do not even know the safety protocols in an emergency situation. I remind everyone, these emergency laws were written as an anti-terror attack issues. They were never really intended for this type of rollout. I am going to look into this today. We could be in the Undiscovered Country.

Dean

The vaccines are mRNA in a lipid nanoparticle. There are no proteins associated with either Pfizer or Morderna formulations.

 
  1. IM Doc

    This is correct sir and reminds me yet again not to attempt comments after an all nighter in the covid unit.

    They are lipids covered in other fats – which is again very allergenic.

    Sorry all for the mistake
    Again I am working on no sleep for 48 hours

Lemmy Caution

Here’s an example of what I mean about knowing where to turn for informaiton about the risks. I happened to be reading an article titled Most Allergic Reactions Not Enough to Nix COVID-19 Vaccine. In it a CDC spokesperson kinda soft pedals the number of serious allergic reactions to the Pfizer vaccine, but also gives some good information about how people can evaluate whether they are at elevated risk or not. All well and good. But then at the very end of the article, while the CDC doctor talks about how soon a person recovering from a Covid infection might get a vaccine shot, she drops this nugget:

“However, they do not recommend co-administration of other vaccines, such as the flu vaccine, with mRNA vaccines. They should be given either 14 days before or after the COVID-19 vaccine.”

Now this is the first time I’ve seen that warning. The doctor doesn’t say what could happen if you get the two vaccines together, but I don’t think I’d want to find out.

Is that what happened to the healthcare workers? As I understand it, many hospitals and clinics require their employees to get annual flu shots. Even if that wasn’t the cause of the rash (no pun intended) of severe allergic reactions to the Pfizer vaccine, what about all the people who go to Walmart and Rite Aid every year for their flu vaccines. Will they know to not mix the two shots, or to wait for 2 weeks either side of the Covid shot?

I googled “Walmart Flu Shots” and the top search result said “Come to Walmart Pharmacy any day to get your flu shot or other vaccines.” The link talks about their flu shot services did say the Covid vaccines would be available soon, but there was no warning that I could see about mixing the flu and covid vaccine shots.

It’s early yet and it sounds like the shots won’t be available for the general public for a while, so I am sure the good people at Walmart, Riteaid and other pharmacies will want to update the information as it comes in. But still.

Every time I read another article another red flag pops up. As Krystyn Podgajski says, I am trying to trust the science…

 
  1. Lemmy Caution

    The more I think about this the more incredulous I become.

    How is it not common knowledge right now that you should not have a flu shot either two weeks before or two weeks after the Pfizer vaccine shot?

    When did the CDC know this? How are the tens of thousands of people getting shots supposed to know?

     
    1. IM Doc

      I read the cdc alerts the instant they are sent – and have done so all year.

      I have not heard this before. If I did, it was when I was exhausted.

      Thank you for pointing this out in her statement. I have some homework today.

antidlc

I have tried to follow the discussion, but I may have missed something.

Trial protocol for Pfizer:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906/suppl_file/nejmoa2027906_protocol.pdf

5.2. Exclusion CriteriaParticipants are excluded from the study if any of the following criteria apply:
Medical Conditions:

1. Other medical or psychiatric condition including recent (within the past year) or active suicidal ideation/behavior or laboratory abnormality that may increase the risk of study participation or, in the investigator’s judgment, make the participant inappropriate for the study.

I am really wondering about #1. Levels of depression have increased dramatically since the pandemic began. It would be interesting to know how many people were excluded from the trials because of recent/active suicide ideation/behavior.

IM Doc

Let me give this a shot

Clinical trials often exclude depressed patients. Except of course in antidepressants.

The reason for that is because these people can make for unreliable subjects.

Once I located the exclusion criteria for this trial it was actually a garbled mess. I was unable to find any statement if the depression exclusion and several others were because they just did it prima facie to decrease non compliant subjects OR if data points tipped them off in their phase 1 and 2 trials that the vaccine made those depressed subjects worse.

One can infer from their wording that it was a simple elimination to decrease bad cohort subjects but that is a guess.

One can also look at the big picture and wonder if exclusion criteria in a study for a drug meant for everyone are a good idea at all.

Exclusion criteria are meant to cherry pick healthy people into a trial to either improve results or make the trial quicker to be the first across the finish line. Many of these criteria problems detonate only after the drug is released and for example all those old diabetics excluded from the trial start taking the real drug.
 

  1. IM Doc

    A few words about your link about “Antibody-Dependent Enhancement”

    My thinking process about COVID vaccines is definitely affected by my access to all kinds of conferences and emailed insights from previous academic colleagues all over this country. Not unlike AIDS during the 1980s, there are fathoms that we simply do not know about this virus. And unfortunately, unlike AIDS, we now have the internet and social media that can spread things not proven or true like wildfire.

    This concept of antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) is one such issue. I am seeing this twisted into Armageddon all over the place online – and I wanted to give at least some persepective.

    I think this article you linked is as accurate as we can be right now based on what I have been reading and listening to from people who know. And it has the benefit of not being written in medical jargon. I encourage everyone to read it.

    Since the beginning of this Operation Warp Speed, I have heard the same three large concerns from specialists from vaccinology, virology, immunology, and infectious disease. There have been many other concerns about the vaccines and our approach – but these three distill all the important stuff.

    — The rapid fire testing is likely going to lead to severe safety issues some expected and some out in left field. We have got to get the doctors of America ready for this. ( A CLEAR FAIL – so far).

    — This applies only to the mRNA vaccines- they have failed in all previous human trials, PHASE I Zike and Influenza, because of the predilection to produce anaphylaxis and other allergies in a statistically significant number of subjects. If this begins to happen immediately upon deployment, we know that we may have a problem. This is important – Because of the nature of this emergency, the risk/benefit ratio may very well be skewed toward continuing forward – only time will tell. And this should be a society decision based on transparent and correct data points.

    — Thirdly, ADE is indeed a very real concern, and has scuttled coronavirus vaccines in the past in animals, and most certainly was responsible for the DENGIVAX disaster a few years ago. This problem will require already vaccinated patients to come into contact with the wild virus. It will take likely months for us to have enough of a cohort walking around to know if this is a problem. I want everyone to understand, there are immunologists and virologists everywhere working tirelessly to see if evidence of this is emerging in tissue samples and immunologic evals already. Again, only time will tell. But this is not going to be immediately obvious like the anaphylaxis issues already are. What is of concern to many informed people, is the fact that we are seemingly immunizing our entire health care system. If this ADE problem does come to the fore, we could be in big trouble. Those who are recommending holding back a portion of the health care workers are being opposed by those who are concerned this holding back will alarm the public and drop already weakened vaccine confndence in the general public. (These issues are profoundly difficult to understand and to explain for everyone). This is a Gordian Knot – and I am not certain anyone has the answer.

    Bottom line – that ADE article is very good – it is comprehensive – and will keep people informed at least where we are now. When I was in medical school, the immune system was treated as a turnip. It is becoming increasingly clear that it may be the most complicated biological system in the universe. It makes your eye, for example, look like a 5 year old’s Lego set.

    Have a Wonderful Holiday Week everyone.

     
    1. Lambert Strether

      > it has the benefit of not being written in medical jargon. I encourage everyone to read it.

      Derek Lowe is very good, and he writes in English. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have a newsletter, so I have to remember to go check him.

       
    2. Cuibono

      one thing. ADE is not the only concerning immune reaction that we need to pay attention to. In fact others may be more problematic.
      ADE in respiratory infections is included in a broader category named enhanced respiratory disease (ERD), which also includes non-antibody-based mechanisms such as cytokine cascades and cell-mediated immunopathology

IM Doc

I had to go to the nearest big city – more than 100 miles away to do Christmas shopping this weekend.
I went to Target, Wal-Mart, Sam’s Club, and Costco.
I have not ventured to the big city since before this pandemic started – to put it bluntly, I was horrified. In my little rural area – for the most part, the masking and distancing is being done voluntarily.
In this city in all 4 stores, I would dare say that at best a third of the masking was being done correctly. Forget about distancing, it was cheek to cheek in all 4 locations.
The only place that was policing was Costco – and if they saw someone sans mask they were immediately confronted , and if refusal, they were bounced out of the store.
The other three were basically super-spreader events, just as I have read about repeatedly for this whole year but never personally witnessed. I got out as soon as I could. I could not believe it. On the way out of the store in both Wal-Mart and the Sam’s club was a big kiosk – “What you need to know about the COVID vaccine.” One could instantly tell these were not PRO-VACCINE locations. They were absolutely mobbed. And to add insult to injury, you get to walk by the Salvation Army bell-ringer sans mask in all 4 places. I have no doubt at all that at least some of this type of behavior is playing a role in CALIF ( my experience is not there).


Pelham

Has anyone seen reliable figures on what percentage of Covid patients suffer Long Covid? It seems to me that this ought to be a huge concern.

People who dismiss the virus as a major threat typically cite the 99.5% survival rate for all but the elderly. But if, say, a quarter of ALL sufferers end up half-disabled permanently, it would be catastrophic on a global scale.

 
  1. IM Doc

    Out of my own anecdotal cohort of COVID patients.

    I have 2378 in my practice – about 33% Medicare – and the rest are insurance and I actually take about 7-10% who have no insurance – and we just work things out. I long for those days again.

    I have had in my practice 287 confirmed positive COVID cases – although I suspect that number is much higher.

    I have had zero deaths.
    I have had over the year 67 of these patients ill enough to be in the hospital. I have had 3 be in the ICU.

    And I have now been having exactly 118 of this 287 total with varying degrees of what is being called Post-COVID syndrome. I have another 53 patients that had classic COVID symptoms before there was appropriate testing but are now having post COVID syndrome symptoms – I am pretty sure it is fair to include them in this group. For a total of 171 patients with post – COVID symptoms and syndrome. Of these 171, 46 are very seriously affected with quite severe damage to their hearts, lungs, brain, or psyche. Many of these are previously very athletic fit patients. I have had an additional 9 patients in this cohort who have had very severe blood clot issues either in their legs,or clots in their livers, spleen, kidney veins, and one pancreas clot. (Unfathomable – if you know anything about medicine. As a resident, I learned about these things but was told I would never see them in real life – just in books. Otherwise known in medicine as a zebra). I can be so exact with numbers because of the electronic medical record. In my opinion, that is about the only thing the electronic medical record is actually good for. I consider the EMR to be a demonic force otherwise.

    I cannot reiterate too many times, this post COVID situation is not a joke. It is real. And it is far more common than media reporting suggests. We do not even remotely have a handle on this. I feel like I did back in the AIDS years – lots of guesswork – and nothing in concrete. Way more people are suffering from this than the hospital issues that are all over the press. The blood clotting issues are straightforward if not scary. The others – we have no clue what to do at this point.

Massinissa

Maybe this isn’t the best place to ask this but I don’t know where else to:

Do we know if the vaccines can prevent these symptoms? Or will the vaccines only prevent the worst effects? I’m just sort of worried the vaccines might not prevent some of these post-covid symptoms from occurring even if it prevents most of the rest of the more major symptoms, but I know neither enough about these vaccines nor vaccines in general to know if my anxiety about this specific possibility that I mentioned is warranted or not.

I’m not planning on taking the vaccine, at least not for at least a few months (I rarely leave the house and take classes online right now), just worried about potential societal effects if the vaccine doesn’t actually prevent some of these symptoms. Again, I don’t know enough about vaccines to know either way.

IM Doc

The assumption would be for any vaccine for any pathogen that it would give the patient immunity to the infection for that particular pathogen. The assumption would be that the vaccination would engage their immune system to fight the pathogen from the instant it is encountered. The assumption would be that would protect the patient from anything the virus could do – from hospital illness to post-COVID syndrome.

I have seen or heard nothing that would make me believe those assumptions are incorrect.
 

IM Doc

Lambert,
FWIW on a deep dive into the NEJM monoclonal antibody trial in the Links today.

The inclusion and exclusion criteria in this trial are found on page 30 and 31 and 32 of the protocol. As you can see by looking at them, they are much more appropriately formatted and easier to follow.

It is completely unlike the PFIZER Vaccine study where the exclusion criteria were really a mishmash. Curious that we would publish this study in a much more clear manner given the fact that this drug may be used in 1/10000 ( if that many) the patients as the vaccine.

Interestingly, there are other areas highlighted in the exclusion criteria section, labeled “H” and “Appendix I”. They are written in blue type and I assume they would be a hyperlink to go right to these areas. However, I was unable to get any of these hyperlinks to work. (Indeed, I was unable to get these blue text areas that look like hyperlinks to work anywhere in the protocol.) It may just be my browser, the latest update of Firefox, but does not appear to work in google chrome either. Are they actually hyperlinks? If not, why are they blue? The entire Table of Contents is in the same blue and appears to be meant to click right to the area – but again – it would not work in any location. I am logged in by my own personal ID and password.

I believe I found what they were talking about in “H” and “Appendix I”, (key word is believe) but it would have been nice to be taken right to the area they were referencing. I am not certain I am in the right area because these areas seemed to be tangential at best to the issues at hand.